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Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 53 total)
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  • #212187
    brook-boddie
    Participant

    Hi hearpe,

    Leaving all of the bickering behind, my main concern is whether or not you are going to get this harp. Has there been any change since your most recent postings? After seeing the website, I would have likely considered it to be a valid online store, so don’t feel bad that you did as well. I do really hope there is a Camac Bardic on the way to you. I owned one once, and it was a great little harp! Please keep us posted.

    #212188
    hearpe
    Participant

    Good. Begone. You might ask those you know at Lyon and Healy if THEIR harps are genuine on this vendors site, and ever sold on the net and not out of a store- the nearest to me being about 200 miles away I believe. I have no “insistence” here- I mull over the possibilities of what’s happening with this order, this site and Camac. Is it another Schwinn of Chicago, Baldwin of Cincinnati (or wherever it was), Kia of Ford or Manuel Rodriguys of China?Even though my funds are at stake, I’m not taking any sides yet. The “insistence” is yours and not unknown I think.

    #212189
    hearpe
    Participant

    Consider this harp here-

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/27-string-lever-harp/132396052157?hash=item1ed36b6ebd:g:bJsAAOSwB4BaCCNb

    Straight up Pakistani- 27 similar in size and appearance to the Camac 27-

    HALF the amount of the “Camac” I ordered and only a QUARTER of the retail price. A little clunky, yes. The levers are definitely longer and require then a taller top piece just to fit them on. The pegs and string guides are similar- no one is using alloy yet (a travesty)

    they don’t give any specifics. I’m only really interested in getting something that weighs less than my Mikel Celtic 27. The 34 is more a floor harp I have to try to move my tired old body around, but in a 27 size- my preferred size now only for being 63 and feeling I’m still wrestling the “portable harp” .

    I had ordered a Rees Sharpsicle 26 “open box” on Amazon for considerably less- figuring I could easily add another three levers to play in A- and it was a good deal too- over $100 less than new retail was in early October, before THEIR haps shot up another $100 or so for the holidays I presume. There is not one now of the same kind for less than $200 more than the one I had on order and cancelled.

    The other possibility with the Camac- is that maybe this site is actually some kind of clearing for blems and returns- yet I suppose they might make that known if it was. I have a number of Cordoba classical guitars in various sizes. They do this quite a bit on ebay- I’ve bought two “blems”- guitars that arrived in new condition you have to take a magnifying glass to to find imperfectons. One I never could! I’ve also ought two Cordoba guitars – new otherwise- where the bridge saddles had come unglued from the light fragile cedar top- for substantially less- and simply reglued them on- neither one has failed in over a year and two.

    So anyway I’m certain Camac makes the finest in concert and serious harps- but this is just a small folk harp I personally simply CAN’T pay the going rate for. I’d have to ride my Fuji knock-off instead of a full Campy Colnago bike if I played harpas anything but an intermediate hack.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion…g- and now I’m having all kinds of trouble with this text window . It’s eating the link I put at the top. Can I edit without disappearing?

    #212190
    Biagio
    Participant

    Well, I meant not to comment further but let me just say that I sincerely hope that you receive a genuine Bardic and all this argument will have been educational to at least someone.

    As for asking L&H, I don’t need to ask questions that I already know the answers to. L&H harps are made in Chicago, Salvi harps in Piasco, Italy. Both are sold first hand only by themselves or licensed dealers. But by all means ask them yourself.

    The fact that a harp is advertised on a website does not in any way imply that said harp is made by the website owner. Good luck and I do apologize for any misunderstandings.

    I’m not really sure of your price range, but if it helps, some excellent and affordable actual lap harps (as opposed to things you have to put on a stand, ha ha) are those by Harps of Lorien and Dwight Blevins. They turn up from time to time in the resale market. The Musicmakers Limrerick is also pretty good and small enough to play on one’s lap, although IMO it’s heavier than it need to be. The kit is pretty easy to put together without any special tools and pretty reasonable cost though of course you have to supply and mount your choice of lever.

    Hopefully this will all be irrelevant and your Bardic will arrive in time for Christmas.

    Biagio

    #212191
    evolene_t
    Participant

    Like the others, I really hope that you do get a real Camac Harp at this price. There is no malice on our part.
    Plus I believe this topic is really educational for all of us!

    However, I do take exception to one thing :

    In this age of non-consumer reporting and non consumer protections- the corporation has suddenly become unassailable.

    Now this I can talk about, seeing as it’s my job. I don’t work for Camac but I do work for a French company that sell their service in the US and I am surprised everyday at the differences in the business culture. France, like most European countries, has very strong laws protecting customers. It is a social democracy after all. (This, btw, makes it more difficult for businesses to start, but it’s a trade off we are very much willing to make).

    If you wanted to, I can detail the legal framework of Camac production. I can give you the legal sources stating exactly why Camac cannot outsource their production and then claim that the harps are built in France. And unlike what I see of the US business culture, the French State makes sure that the laws are applied to businesses.

    So Biagio has explained just why it is highly improbable that Camac would lie about this from a harp-maker’s point of view. I can detail why (again, quoting all of the legal aspects and laws, though you would be bored to death :-D) it would not be possible from a legal business point of view.

    Concerning copyright laws, I fail to see why Camac would be legally responsible for someone using their name. They are probably interested to know that people usurp their name. But they are a small business and probable won’t devote man-power to searching all of the scammers using their brand. Furthermore, we don’t sue people and business all the time in France. Like I said, legally speaking, the customer is not always right.

    Finally, that eBay link shows a Paki harp : now, I absolutely understand when you say that you are not willing to pay for a full-price Camac Harp. Harps made by great names are expensive. But if you buy from these shops, you accept to pay their price. Should you prefer to buy a cheaper harp by another name, all the more power to you! But you can’t have both the cheap item and the brand name.
    (I leave the issue of quality and of fair pricing to the harp-makers among us ; for myself, I was willing to pay full price for a new harp but the second-hand market for harps is thriving and it’s possible to get at Camac Harp at half-price that way. I’m told that harps don’t lose their quality with age…. if they have been cared for).

    Definitely keep us informed when you receive the product : we are all rooting for you to receive a quality item!

    #212192
    hearpe
    Participant

    Hello-

    well I am sorry this has gotten this heated. Until delivery- if there is one- despite having tracking from a major carrier- I simply don’t know.

    I don’t know what could ever stop anyone from buying and reselling someone else’s harps, but there probably wouldn’t be any real profit- so maybe this is all still a scam- a very large and long standing one.

    There are supposedly 9 “Camac Bardic 27” harps still available in the color I ordered- there were 10 and 10 still listed as available in all the other colors- as if they haven’t sold a one, and I first looked at this maybe 6 or 7 weeks ago now when hurricanes kept heading this way and tore up the town a bit.

    Whatever happens- I will report back here, and may get back in touch with Camac if something is amiss. I’d imagine they’d have concern over someone replicating their sales copy, word for word using their pictures and specifications, word for word. It must be illegal internationally- it is in the U.S. I’m certain from the little bit of Communications Law I studied in Journalism School.

    Until now, it’s wait and see and hope I haven’t jinxed myself further. It ain’t easy being me out here.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by hearpe.
    #212194
    Biagio
    Participant

    In the interest of “education” or whatever, I did some sleuthing about eCrater and A1 Products listed therein. Findings (which would have been helpful if I’d just done that in the first place!):

    eCrater is a market-maker, in the same way that eBay is, although the owner has a different pricing structure. Bottom line, though, people can advertise their wares of any sort.

    There are a lot of entities named A1 Products. The only reference I could find to the words “eCrater A1 Products” combined was a scam report on Paypal. Bummer!

    Let’s all knock wood for Hearpe.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by Biagio.
    #212196
    hearpe
    Participant

    That might be my own report at this point. I also wonder- if it is a misrepresentation, how it appears so easily and prominently on Google Search.

    It was eCraters disclaimer of its own vendors that first sent up alarm bells. I thought it was similar to ebay, but it is much less buyer protected. The harp was listed as “cosmetics” on my paypal statement although there were no cosmetics listed even at their site for sale.

    #212199
    carl-swanson
    Participant

    I have read most of this thread. My question to Hearpe is: Did you ever, at any point, pick up the telephone, dial a number, and talk to a live person at any of these businesses? It sounds from what I read that you didn’t. How did you communicate with the various businesses? By texting? By email? And you’re wondering why your caught in this mess? One phone call could have cleared this up. There were red flags all over the place that you were not dealing with legitimate people. You were taken in by a dirt cheap price for a quality instrument. So if you dealt with this business only by texting or email and never talked to anyone directly, and you paid your money and got an instrument of inferior quality or no instrument at all, where’s the bargain???? You said someplace that you’re 200 miles from the nearest harp shop. Then get in the car and go there. That’s not an unreasonable distance. Walk into the shop, try the instruments, pick one out, talk to the sales person in front of you, buy the harp, and walk out with the instrument that you have played, you like, and you want. But please, do not complain about, or bad mouth, businesses with whom you’ve only communicated by text or email or not at all.

    #212200

    You say that the add appears “on the right” in a Google search. This is most likely a paid ad which can be bought by anyone and has not relevancy to the actual popularity of the website. A true Google result are the ones listed below where the advertisements stop.

    #212207
    Biagio
    Participant

    A bit off topic, but somewhat relevant: Evolene, I can’t give a very definite answer as to how harps are priced by the “big boys”: aside from material costs there are factors such as overhead, labor costs, competition, etc. etc. that might vary widely from one maker to another.

    What I can do is provide the cost of upgrading a good kit harp – the 34 string Musicmkaers Voyageur – to a great concert quality harp. Here it is:

    Cost of kit $1,395
    Upgrade strings 250
    Upgrade Sound board 300 (from Finnish laminate to spruce)
    Add levers 550 (Truitts or Camacs)
    Total $2,495

    You would have to factor in your imputed labor cost but let’s say about 50 hours at $50/hour: $2,500

    So call it a grand total of $5000. That’s only a little less than a Dusty FH34.

    Moral of this lesson: there ain’t no bargains out there.

    Biagio

    #212208
    balfour-knight
    Participant

    Ha, ha, Biagio–if it were me, I think I would just buy the Dusty ready made!

    #212209
    wil-weten
    Participant

    In addition to Biagio’s latest message. I couldn’t find back the source, but as far a I remember, a few years ago, Camac stated in a blog or an interview that they don’t make any profit on the Bardics, but that they build it in order to make these real nice harps accessible for as many people (children?) as possible and that they hope that, later on, people want to buy one of their harps of 34 strings or more. I like the Bardics, though with their approximately 6 kilo’s, they weigh almost as much as some light weight 31 or even 34 string harps built by several German artisan builders.

    #212210
    Biagio
    Participant

    Hee, hee, Balfour – my point exactly. Plus, with respect to the hypothetical “upgrade” you wouldn’t get a nice soft case with it. So add on another $400 or so. No 5-year warranty either:-)

    There is something to be said for going through the process of such an upgrade, though, if someone really wished to know something about how harps are designed and made. But in my experience, most players are not interested in that and who can blame them?

    Grins,
    Biagio

    #212211
    hearpe
    Participant

    “Money Money Money, the Great Frankenstein Monster”

    Someone said I’ve bad mouthed businesses- that I haven’t really done- I’ve only really only commented negatively negatively about someone’s broken English in e-mail texts from the vendor- almost theatrically mid-east in nature- but I did not mention- with NO SPELLING errors otherwise. (He’s NOT dealing with my Harp Form text window!)

    Anyway, this is all getting a little too millennial COrporate sadistic internet babbled where THE CORPORATION is always the victim, and we who were born to be slaves of money and the better potato/e spellers among us are ALWAYS such dolts and to blame for our every misery, Toujour!

    A land where my computer malfunctions because of my own lack of competence- although it worked much better ten years ago- have I only grown senile?

    No- my computer malfunctions because some Rogue in some garage somewhere has it in for me, my kind and my views, NOT because some corporate group has built that in to the system not that their monopoly has closed all local retail (except for approved sadists) and now they can’t take back- or “leverage” may be more accurate- the free exchange of ideas and the free market delivery monster I’m sure it’s all turned into?

    Have I mentioned that this all could have been born of the CORORATE STRUCTURE itself? That at this very moment BLAIRS WITH TRAIN HORN very loudly in a most Tough Trouphy kind of Way- as it does needlessly most nights, Flounder. I might have suggested something like that, so maybe that’s construed as “bad mouthing” although its as much a comment on EVERY Company as much as on Camac who may or may not be dealing with – officially at least, because no one would ever make their own bootleg product in ay way, or perhaps- and mind you I only say “perhaps” which denotes only possibility, could also somehow be testing the waters of such- dare I say it?- Out Sourced production, but not yet ready to place their tag officially on such a product ?

    If that were the case we could all be stirring the waters of corporate decision right now!- so perhaps we should take a vote? Should lesser players be allowed lesser harps at any lesser price or shall the Charmin Choir rule the toothless roost again? What does Protocol Harem think?

    never mind guess I already know- It is largely a woman’s instrument, but lord knows the stage manager doesn’t think me one! (He’s lost)

    no harp yet, though it was promised by the end of this day (now)- the last I heard it’s in Artlanta, Ashley, where I didn’t quite get to in my 21 year old Aspire (plus 42mpg though) when the Hurricane before the one that leveled Puerto Rico (They should MOVE!) prompted an impromptu trip when it RIPPED up Memorial Park here in Jacksonville.

    I’ll let you know.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 53 total)
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