Why does this post keep disappearing?


  • Participant
    hearpe on #212151

    Anyone know if Camac has started building harps in Pakistan??
    I ordered a Camac Bardic 27- I thought it was coming from the UK as listed on the website. Shipping now reveals it originated in Pakistan-

    Wiki describes all Camac harps as being made in France, but that seems to have been entered in 2007.

    I was a little worried over the deal, and queried Camac of France about this vendor on eCrater. I never got a response from them. He seems to have their complete line of harps for sale and uses their descriptions and specs verbatim, but his pictures seem to lack the Camac logo plate on the pillar- does anyone know if that’s been dropped?
    http://a1-products.ecrater.com/
    This site seemed to pop upon the search engines when I first found it, but now a search of Camac harps for sale doesn’t bring it up like it did. It would seem to me that if somehow this is some kind of ‘bootleg” harp, then Camac might put some pressure on the site- or using their descriptions and even their color choices.
    The other thing was that the price more than doubled after I queried Camac, and now more the norm. I could have ordered one more locally at the same price then, but probably wouldn’t spend that kind of money at that point. Strange. I was just going to press for a refund when finally given some tacking information. I’ll just have to see what arrives I guess. Caveat Emptor. “Let the Buyer Beware”


    Participant
    wil-weten on #212154

    Please, let’s not feed false rumours!

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  wil-weten.

    Participant
    hearpe on #212158

    Well, not really trying to feed false rumors- merely relating something I’m experiencing. As I said I came on his site- not a store, but an internet site- via the search engine-
    As they list 56 different Camac harps and all sorts of models- it seemed legit enough, as well as other brands, including Lyon and Healy.

    Incidentally the Camac site in France only lists two UK stores- and only the Early Music Shoppe link seems to work. Anyway, I only went to Camac France and enquired of the vendor after I’d ordered the harp, and then noticed that much of the information from the website had disappeared from the vendors store itself- including their extensive line of kilts. The price was significantly less than I saw the harps listed anywhere else, and the text descriptions, and specifications were exactly the same. Even the pictures and the colors listed are all exactly the same, except that I noticed the usual oval label on the pillar was missing. When I looked more closely at “eCrater” I cringed because it seems fly by night and they disclaim all knowledge and responsibility of the vendors who list there. It’s not protected like E-Bay.

    That’s why I then asked Camac if they could verify the authenticity- via email- and I never heard back.

    Shipping lagged and the vendor told me he had just shipped the harp via “international courrier” with no tracking available- that took a week after he initially said 3 business days. At that point I filed an issue with Pay Pal because it was seeming more bogus. He gave me a delivery date of Nov 10. After that I contacted the vendor again and he said the harp was in the states and would be delivered before Nov 15. So that came and went. I asked him why their was no tracking if the harp was in the states then, and then yesterday I finally got some from a national carrier. I was surprised to see the place of origin NOT the UK but Silakot Pakisan, THEN Heathrow and then NY- he had apparently bluffed with his description of the harp being in the U.S, when he said it was because it was just flown from Heathrow a couple of days ago. All the communications is in very broken English, mind you, unlike the site itself which is sketchy but lists a location near Liverpool. So I’m just wondering what I’m getting, and why the shipping origin is from Pakistan.
    The statement about Camacs still being made in France looks authentic enough, but is also placed in the proximity of the year 2007 listing I found strange on Wiki. So I wonder if there may have been a change on low end they don’t want that “out there”. If they had responded to my questions of the legitimacy of this net vendor the whole thing may be cleared up.
    I dunno- maybe it’s personal and the tracing is fake now! I’ve had some trouble with deliveries in the past and forgive me for saying I think they’ve been because I’m a transgendered woman of long standing. More than my share of shenanigans.

    In the middle of the non-tracing wait, I found myself looking at this picture and getting paranoid- notice the prominent “Amac” label on the wall- which could have just as easily been obscured or slightly obscured-
    anyway, just silly, right?

    P.S. I cringe as I edit tis for typos, because this post- and others have fallen off at that point- hence the thread title. The “Voice” and number for the missing post still appears, and my name but the post is irretrievable . This was called “Has Camac out sourced to Pakistan” before it disappeared yesterday.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  hearpe.

    Participant
    wil-weten on #212161

    Please, stop spreading false rumours by asking questions you can easily find the answers to with a little bit of googling!
    Your previous question which was probably automatically or manually removed by the moderators, had a biased wording of the subject. And even though you got the answer you asked for, you just ask the same question again…


    Participant
    hearpe on #212163

    An event and sequence of events happening to me is not false rumor. Merely an account of what’s happening. If a moderator removed a thread, wouldn’t I get an explanation or at least notified that it is removed? Please don’t try to intimidate someone with your own unsupported speculation.

    I’m only saying I didn’t get an answer from Camac, and this vendor still lists their harps- a full month after my order- with their texts, colors and pictures. If it is a scam, it is Camac who needs to pursue the vendor. If they have commissioned someone in Pakistan to produce some lower end lever harps, they may not want that out there, or care to change to change some web statement that may have been said in 2007.

    Personally, outside of my order- I don’t care. EVERYONE does this- Electronics, car companies, bicycles and even Spanish Guitar makers have commissioned builders in Asia to more mass produce instruments cheaper than they can at home. My intention is not to smear Camac, only wonder over the point of origin listed in the tracking info- of a harp, described in the very text and specs and colors that Camac uses on all the other sites otherwise.

    That the price suddenly shot up over double after my order was on the way and I’d wired Camac may be more telling. I may be getting a fake harp, or a very good deal.


    Participant
    hearpe on #212165

    By the way, the date listed as a departure from Pakistan is NOVEMBER 14! Four days AFTER I was first given a date for delivery of Nov. 10, and only 4 days ago now. So the vendor has jacked me around there at least.

    At any rate, guess I’ll know more soon.

    “As to your remark on the amount of shops in a certain country, Camac’s policy is to concentrate the selling of their harps in one shop per country. This is now already the case in a lot of countries.”

    There are SEVEN vendors of Camac harps listed in the USA on their website, Two in the UK (only 1 link works here) two in Australia, two in Japan and even two in Hong Kong, so I’m not sure where you got this little gem of information.

    I take it you must play Camac harps?

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  hearpe.

    Participant
    Tacye on #212167

    That webshop does not look like one I would trust. I can appreciate why you are hoping that the harp you get is what you ordered, perhaps slipped out the backdoor of the factory, if the factory were only in the same country. I will be interested to hear what arrives and how you get on claiming a refund.

    Camac may not have their weblink up to date, this is the other UK shop:

    Home


    Participant
    carl-swanson on #212170

    This whole thread looks, to me, like a lesson in why buying on the internet is at best risky. From what you’ve said, it seems you ordered, and paid for, a harp from a foreign country, without ever speaking to a live person on line. It also sounds like you did this because you got taken in by the cheap price. By not speaking to a live representative in this transaction, you left yourself wide open to be taken for a ride. And now you’re surprised and worried?? Please!! The fact that it was coming from Pakistan, the fact that the price was half what the instrument was advertised for elsewhere, the fact that, from the beginning, the shipping information was slipshod, the fact that you couldn’t get any solid information from Camac… All of these facts were red flags that something was terribly wrong. And let me guess… you did all of your communication by texting. The order, the attempt to contact Camac, the back and forth between the supposed seller and yourself, all of this was probably texting. And you’re wondering why it all went wrong? All you had to do was pick up the phone and make one call and you could have cleared this up immediately. In the future, I would suggest you stick to a brick and mortar store. Walk in, look at and try the harps, tell the live person in front of you which one you want, pay for it, and walk out with the instrument. And leave your cell phone at home!

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  carl-swanson.

    Participant
    Evolène on #212173

    I’m not sure what the “false rumours” are about…
    However, I had the same reaction to this story as carl-swanson.

    I’m French, and as such, know Camac well (every harpist here has gone through them at some point or other). They are extremely efficient and will help clients out. As long as the harp says “Camac”, even if it’s 50 years old, they will help you. I’ve never tried the international version of it, though, of course.
    However, the concept of artisanat (local, hand-wrought) is highly valued in France and is part of the Camac brand image. As such, I don’t understand why one would assume that they out-source to Pakistan… It’s not a car, it’s an expensive, hand-made item, and the fact that it is made in France is part of the sales pitch, notwithstanding the quality control. So, no, they did not outsource their work!

    (By the way, my harp is by Dusty Strings, if that mattered to you).

    However : you have bought a harp from what you thought was a reseller, based in Pakistan. You trusted the website since it presented the same infos as the Camac website. The thing is, this is internet. It’s extremely easy to copy and paste a text or an image.

    Furthermore, you haven’t received any coherent information concerning the shipping. If I understand correctly, you still haven’t seen any harp as of yet… Personnaly I’m willing to bet that you’ll never see any harp at the end of the day.

    I’ll add that Camac doesn’t directly sell their own harps through their website, but go through trusted sellers. So when you’re asking them to take responsibility for a product that they do not sell (=> to private individuals), it does not make any sense to them.
    I would also not assume that, just because someone is using the Camac name, it is their responsibility to do anything about it. You went through a seller, that sold on a website called eCrater. These are the businesses that you must speak to. Camac has nothing to do with this.

    (Final note, since I’m all too familiar with the way Americans expect businesses to lavish on them : in France, the client is king… but we French don’t hesitate to cut a king’s head off if he’s no good! 😀 Respect goes both ways.)

    Finally, caveat emptor. A good rule of thumb is “you get what you pay for” and trying to get a brand item at half the price, well… at best (for you) it’s the real deal that was stolen and sold off. More realistically, either a cheap knockoff, or nothing, will come out of it. For your sake, I really hope not!

    Good luck and keep us informed! 🙂

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  Evolène.

    Participant
    Biagio on #212174

    Personally, outside of my order- I don’t care. EVERYONE does this- Electronics, car companies, bicycles and even Spanish Guitar makers have commissioned builders in Asia to more mass produce instruments cheaper than they can at home

    Um, no, FYI and for the future information, NO legitimate harp maker licenses mass produced instruments outside their factory. The closest you will find are kit harps put together by second party vendors, all of which have gone through a rigorous screening.

    Sorry for your problems and better fortune next time.

    Biagio


    Participant
    hearpe on #212176

    “However : you have bought a harp from what you thought was a reseller, based in Pakistan. You trusted the website since it presented the same infos as the Camac website. The thing is, this is internet. It’s extremely easy to copy and paste a text or an image.”

    I did no such thing- I saw some videos on youtube and then searched “Camac Bardic harp” on Google. One of those small ads with the picture came up in the corner- among others- with a link and the price- then considerably less than some others. The text descriptions, the specifics and even the color choices were exactly identical to other places I looked at the harp.

    I’m not sure what the copyright laws are about advertising, but if the harps aren’t genuine, I’m sure the site violates some kind of copyright law using text descriptions and specs verbatim- and the problem is then Camacs – who I’ve notified- and everyone else in the free world who may order from there. Like I said- the price of the Baric was raised more than two fold after I ordered, so it’s really no deal anymore. I could have ordered one from Atlanta at the same price. The site has a large line of “Camac Harps” models of the usual names, all with the same descriptions and specs you will find at the many Camac vendors lsted on their own sites.

    I would think that if someone has NO DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of a corporations current operating procedures, they should not then act the expert on the topic. I simply came here to ask if anyone knew of this for sure, not to play any role otherwise.

    I have a tracking statement from a major package courier- I’m not going to say which one before delivery this may already be personal and I could more now easily take delivery on damaged goods. Another carrier a few years ago ran me around the shipping smokescreens and the delivered a suspiciously damaged small guitar- shipped from right here in Florida
    Anyway my tracking says the harp came from Pakistan, through London and onto the U.S.

    I stand by my statement that everyone has done this kinda production shift- and since the 1960s and 1970s otherwise. Maybe the Camac statement- acerca de 2007- is now fudging a little bit. I’m sorry if some company might not seem romantically the same to you- but they are in BUSINESS for the purpose of making money, filling orders and making people happy. They’re salespeople. Would it matter all that much to you if Camac design and Camac materials and levers and strings were assembled then in Pakistan ? You’re own prejudices might be showing. Maybe you should take up violin- there’s this same kind of issue there over Asian non-German fiddles.

    As far as French products- I ride a 1967 Peugeot bicycle I’ve had since 1987, and before that I raced for Exxon (Tressostar!) and watched bicycle production being saved by the Asians when it was otherwise being flushed down the toilet by Big Oil in the 70’s and 80’s. My two outer fingers on my left hand are still broke, but I’m still standing and not about to do it ever again!

    Send this thread link to Camac if you will. I may… Enquiring minds want to know….


    Participant
    Tacye on #212182

    Much as you try to make this someone else’s problem, I’m afraid it is still yours.

    Someone cut and paste some text on the internet? Only the text author’s problem if they choose to make it theirs. Likewise, if I read your posts right, a business’ wikipedia page is referencing a significant award won ten years ago.

    It comes across that on the basis of one transaction on the internet you are pushing hard for an established business to justify themselves to you. You are asking what is being seen as a leading question, because you want the answer to be yes- if it is you might then get the good harp you intended to order at a price too good to be true. The internet has a fair collection of dodgy characters who would love your money, and harps are not immune. I am sorry you have fallen foul of this one, but you are not going to get any reassurance that what you ordered will arrive.

    It is usually pretty easy to tell where established businesses have things manufactured thanks to various trade laws and tariffs. The device I am writing this on says ‘assembled in China’ on the back and it won’t be there just because the maker really wanted to advertise this fact.


    Participant
    Biagio on #212183

    This thread started as an innocent but naive question (Does Camac license construction in Pakistan? Answer, No) and has since devolved into some heated discussion. This may not help but here is my view, as someone very familiar with industry practices and friends in the community from Dusty Strings to L&H:

    I do not wish to aggravate you, hearpe, but you have been making statements with no basis in fact. Look, most reputable harp makers do not even publish their string designs, and certainly not the construction details. The reason for this is that they do not want anyone else to copy the design and then produce a harp falsely claiming to be the original. That is a fact, and your inference is not only wrong, it is at best wishful thinking. As Tacye put it, “You get what you pay for.” If you get it at all.

    If you choose to “stand by your statement” that’s fine. It is however an uninformed opinion, that is all. Perpetuating an opinion as fact could indeed be construed as libel, though I doubt that Camac would bother to pursue a case. So my advice for what it’s worth would be to be better informed in the future and in the meantime cease trying to justify what seems to be a bad decision.

    You wrote, “They’re salespeople. Would it matter all that much to you if Camac design and Camac materials and levers and strings were assembled then in Pakistan ?” I have two problems with this, so sorry. First, harp makers are first and foremost craftsmen who take pride in their work, which has come only after years of experience. Second..yes, it would matter a great deal to me since I would have no assurance that it was up to spec and be covered by any warranty. Is the harp that you ordered advertised as covered by a warranty?

    It IS true that reputable makers license retailers to sell their harps and perhaps that may be the root cause of confusion. And used harps also show up on other sites. That is a far cry from licensing third parties to actually make the harp. If they did that, it should be obvious that they have no quality control and that is crucial to a harp maker’s reputation.

    It is unfortunately also true that there are dodgy characters who acquire a harp and then attempt to copy it. Dodgy, but only illegal if they then slap the original maker’s name on their reproduction. However you slice it, you are not getting a great deal, because you are not getting a great harp, in all probability. Perhaps it will all work out for you and I truly hope so.

    We are not trying to attack you here, nor compound what must be a frustrating situation for you. But for some of us, and particularly those who are harp makers, suggesting that Camac (or any other reputable maker) allows third party construction is outrageous. However, you persist in arguing for a false premise. With respect to mid-east harps in particular, they are notorious for that sort of practice. Which is a major reason that they often have problems and most technicians will not work on them.

    I am sorry for all the heartache this must cause you, but honestly it is your own fault.

    Biagio

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  Biagio.

    Participant
    hearpe on #212185

    Google search result for “Camac Bardic 27 harp”

    https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGHP_enUS638US638&q=camac+bardic+27+harp&qscrl=1

    There it is on the right.

    You people want to say you know something when you don’t- unless you work for Camac right NOW you CAN’T know

    You don’t want to answer me with what you know, you want to character assassinate me and play the expert at something you CAN’T know.

    Actually- I wanted to ask a simple question- had anyone heard of this- You WANT to assume that the tracking and vendor represent some kind of scam and perhaps NOT something contrary to what you’ve assumed based on a statement by Camac- another vendor- on their website under a bit of info from 2007 and then repeated on Wiki with that same date attached to it- a statement on the web that seems a confirmed ten years old.

    If Camac is NOT associated with this- they could have answered me a month ago, and they probably need to take action on the vendor for producing fakes and then using their very same information- verbatim descriptions, specs and color schemes- with the same pictures.

    If they are associated with this- and there are a variety of models using the same Camac names descriptions color schemes and pictures, then maybe they’ll have to retract that statement they may have made in 2007 that all the harps are made in France. I can’t speak for their entire line, but my own opinion for this model is it is probably overpriced, for what other makers offer- some of them Pakistani- offer in the same size and relative quality. I only ordered one- after weeks of deliberation because the price was lower and I guessed- correctly I assume- that the cost would be going up soon.

    In this age of non-consumer reporting and non consumer protections- the corporation has suddenly become unassailable. It occurred to me last night that if in fact Camac IS having there harps produced now in Pakistan that, they in fact might be cornering the market- using Paki labor and resources to then sell a harp for over twice what the independent builders of such a place would build and sell otherwise. You may all be rabid attacking me over a false advertising claim as easily as anything else here, but I guess I’m just dealing with the internet resident experts again and you’ll probably tell me so yourselves again.

    Still I suspect I’ll be back. It’s just my journalism degree I guess that likes an abusive challenge. I see a lot of material above was deleted from others’ posts- some of it proven falsehood, other parts even more the personal attack. I’m amazed that people can get so , well, Huffy on the net, but then none of us really can tell who we are dealing with if it’s not a reputable former high school footballer for hire I guess.


    Participant
    Biagio on #212186

    Have it your way but please do not tell me that I do not know industry practice. If I, for one, seem to be attacking you it is because you obviously do not have any idea of what you are suggesting; though I have tried to be kind.

    Do I know the people at Camac? No, but I do know personally the owners and/or employees of Dusty Strings, Thormahlen Harps, Heartland Harps, Rees, Sligo, Ardival, Folcharps, Salvi, L&H…. just to name a few. If Camac is an exception to their practices I would be extremely surprised.

    My statements are not an abusive challenge, at least they are not intended to be. Your insistence however, that you know more than others who actually have experience in the industry (I think I would be correct in naming Tacye and Carl at least) is at the very least annoying and as far as am concerned insulting. If you perceive those remarks as abusive, who is to blame for that?

    If you wish to acquire a good harp, I suggest that you listen to what people who know a good deal more tell you, or build your own. For myself, I am done wasting time on this.

    Biagio

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