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Well, not really trying to feed false rumors- merely relating something I’m experiencing. As I said I came on his site- not a store, but an internet site- via the search engine-
As they list 56 different Camac harps and all sorts of models- it seemed legit enough, as well as other brands, including Lyon and Healy.Incidentally the Camac site in France only lists two UK stores- and only the Early Music Shoppe link seems to work. Anyway, I only went to Camac France and enquired of the vendor after I’d ordered the harp, and then noticed that much of the information from the website had disappeared from the vendors store itself- including their extensive line of kilts. The price was significantly less than I saw the harps listed anywhere else, and the text descriptions, and specifications were exactly the same. Even the pictures and the colors listed are all exactly the same, except that I noticed the usual oval label on the pillar was missing. When I looked more closely at “eCrater” I cringed because it seems fly by night and they disclaim all knowledge and responsibility of the vendors who list there. It’s not protected like E-Bay.
That’s why I then asked Camac if they could verify the authenticity- via email- and I never heard back.
Shipping lagged and the vendor told me he had just shipped the harp via “international courrier” with no tracking available- that took a week after he initially said 3 business days. At that point I filed an issue with Pay Pal because it was seeming more bogus. He gave me a delivery date of Nov 10. After that I contacted the vendor again and he said the harp was in the states and would be delivered before Nov 15. So that came and went. I asked him why their was no tracking if the harp was in the states then, and then yesterday I finally got some from a national carrier. I was surprised to see the place of origin NOT the UK but Silakot Pakisan, THEN Heathrow and then NY- he had apparently bluffed with his description of the harp being in the U.S, when he said it was because it was just flown from Heathrow a couple of days ago. All the communications is in very broken English, mind you, unlike the site itself which is sketchy but lists a location near Liverpool. So I’m just wondering what I’m getting, and why the shipping origin is from Pakistan.
The statement about Camacs still being made in France looks authentic enough, but is also placed in the proximity of the year 2007 listing I found strange on Wiki. So I wonder if there may have been a change on low end they don’t want that “out there”. If they had responded to my questions of the legitimacy of this net vendor the whole thing may be cleared up.
I dunno- maybe it’s personal and the tracing is fake now! I’ve had some trouble with deliveries in the past and forgive me for saying I think they’ve been because I’m a transgendered woman of long standing. More than my share of shenanigans.In the middle of the non-tracing wait, I found myself looking at this picture and getting paranoid- notice the prominent “Amac” label on the wall- which could have just as easily been obscured or slightly obscured-
anyway, just silly, right?P.S. I cringe as I edit tis for typos, because this post- and others have fallen off at that point- hence the thread title. The “Voice” and number for the missing post still appears, and my name but the post is irretrievable . This was called “Has Camac out sourced to Pakistan” before it disappeared yesterday.
By the way, the date listed as a departure from Pakistan is NOVEMBER 14! Four days AFTER I was first given a date for delivery of Nov. 10, and only 4 days ago now. So the vendor has jacked me around there at least.
At any rate, guess I’ll know more soon.
“As to your remark on the amount of shops in a certain country, Camac’s policy is to concentrate the selling of their harps in one shop per country. This is now already the case in a lot of countries.”
There are SEVEN vendors of Camac harps listed in the USA on their website, Two in the UK (only 1 link works here) two in Australia, two in Japan and even two in Hong Kong, so I’m not sure where you got this little gem of information.
I take it you must play Camac harps?
This whole thread looks, to me, like a lesson in why buying on the internet is at best risky. From what you’ve said, it seems you ordered, and paid for, a harp from a foreign country, without ever speaking to a live person on line. It also sounds like you did this because you got taken in by the cheap price. By not speaking to a live representative in this transaction, you left yourself wide open to be taken for a ride. And now you’re surprised and worried?? Please!! The fact that it was coming from Pakistan, the fact that the price was half what the instrument was advertised for elsewhere, the fact that, from the beginning, the shipping information was slipshod, the fact that you couldn’t get any solid information from Camac… All of these facts were red flags that something was terribly wrong. And let me guess… you did all of your communication by texting. The order, the attempt to contact Camac, the back and forth between the supposed seller and yourself, all of this was probably texting. And you’re wondering why it all went wrong? All you had to do was pick up the phone and make one call and you could have cleared this up immediately. In the future, I would suggest you stick to a brick and mortar store. Walk in, look at and try the harps, tell the live person in front of you which one you want, pay for it, and walk out with the instrument. And leave your cell phone at home!
I’m not sure what the “false rumours” are about…
However, I had the same reaction to this story as carl-swanson.I’m French, and as such, know Camac well (every harpist here has gone through them at some point or other). They are extremely efficient and will help clients out. As long as the harp says “Camac”, even if it’s 50 years old, they will help you. I’ve never tried the international version of it, though, of course.
However, the concept of artisanat (local, hand-wrought) is highly valued in France and is part of the Camac brand image. As such, I don’t understand why one would assume that they out-source to Pakistan… It’s not a car, it’s an expensive, hand-made item, and the fact that it is made in France is part of the sales pitch, notwithstanding the quality control. So, no, they did not outsource their work!(By the way, my harp is by Dusty Strings, if that mattered to you).
However : you have bought a harp from what you thought was a reseller, based in Pakistan. You trusted the website since it presented the same infos as the Camac website. The thing is, this is internet. It’s extremely easy to copy and paste a text or an image.
Furthermore, you haven’t received any coherent information concerning the shipping. If I understand correctly, you still haven’t seen any harp as of yet… Personnaly I’m willing to bet that you’ll never see any harp at the end of the day.
I’ll add that Camac doesn’t directly sell their own harps through their website, but go through trusted sellers. So when you’re asking them to take responsibility for a product that they do not sell (=> to private individuals), it does not make any sense to them.
I would also not assume that, just because someone is using the Camac name, it is their responsibility to do anything about it. You went through a seller, that sold on a website called eCrater. These are the businesses that you must speak to. Camac has nothing to do with this.(Final note, since I’m all too familiar with the way Americans expect businesses to lavish on them : in France, the client is king… but we French don’t hesitate to cut a king’s head off if he’s no good! 😀 Respect goes both ways.)
Finally, caveat emptor. A good rule of thumb is “you get what you pay for” and trying to get a brand item at half the price, well… at best (for you) it’s the real deal that was stolen and sold off. More realistically, either a cheap knockoff, or nothing, will come out of it. For your sake, I really hope not!
Good luck and keep us informed! 🙂
This thread started as an innocent but naive question (Does Camac license construction in Pakistan? Answer, No) and has since devolved into some heated discussion. This may not help but here is my view, as someone very familiar with industry practices and friends in the community from Dusty Strings to L&H:
I do not wish to aggravate you, hearpe, but you have been making statements with no basis in fact. Look, most reputable harp makers do not even publish their string designs, and certainly not the construction details. The reason for this is that they do not want anyone else to copy the design and then produce a harp falsely claiming to be the original. That is a fact, and your inference is not only wrong, it is at best wishful thinking. As Tacye put it, “You get what you pay for.” If you get it at all.
If you choose to “stand by your statement” that’s fine. It is however an uninformed opinion, that is all. Perpetuating an opinion as fact could indeed be construed as libel, though I doubt that Camac would bother to pursue a case. So my advice for what it’s worth would be to be better informed in the future and in the meantime cease trying to justify what seems to be a bad decision.
You wrote, “They’re salespeople. Would it matter all that much to you if Camac design and Camac materials and levers and strings were assembled then in Pakistan ?” I have two problems with this, so sorry. First, harp makers are first and foremost craftsmen who take pride in their work, which has come only after years of experience. Second..yes, it would matter a great deal to me since I would have no assurance that it was up to spec and be covered by any warranty. Is the harp that you ordered advertised as covered by a warranty?
It IS true that reputable makers license retailers to sell their harps and perhaps that may be the root cause of confusion. And used harps also show up on other sites. That is a far cry from licensing third parties to actually make the harp. If they did that, it should be obvious that they have no quality control and that is crucial to a harp maker’s reputation.
It is unfortunately also true that there are dodgy characters who acquire a harp and then attempt to copy it. Dodgy, but only illegal if they then slap the original maker’s name on their reproduction. However you slice it, you are not getting a great deal, because you are not getting a great harp, in all probability. Perhaps it will all work out for you and I truly hope so.
We are not trying to attack you here, nor compound what must be a frustrating situation for you. But for some of us, and particularly those who are harp makers, suggesting that Camac (or any other reputable maker) allows third party construction is outrageous. However, you persist in arguing for a false premise. With respect to mid-east harps in particular, they are notorious for that sort of practice. Which is a major reason that they often have problems and most technicians will not work on them.
I am sorry for all the heartache this must cause you, but honestly it is your own fault.
Biagio
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