Tuning by Ear vs. Electronic Tuner

[Gretchen Cover]

Slightly off-topic: Biagio and other geeks, do a key word search”blue box dial tone” and/or “phone phreaking.” Very interesting history and tech info about dial tones you will find fascinating. What I wrote about is true.

[charles-nix]

Biagio:

I think I know the tuning system you are talking about. It is reproduced in one of Bochsa’s student books on IMSLP.

As I remember, it uses octaves and fifths over a roughly 1-1/2 octave span, copying down octaves when out of range. Then it checks with tonic, dominant, and dom-7th chords.

It seems I remember that the accompanying instructions are a little sketchy. The fifths would have to be a little flat in almost any well temperament, but no mention was made of that. I think it was intended to be accompanied by instruction by the teacher.

Personally, I prefer a fourths and fifths temperament method–probably because I learned that way. The fifths are flat and the fourths are sharp (because they are inverted fifths). Then there is no transferring octaves with the accompanying inaccuracy. But it is a lot harder to keep track of which way to move what string.

Today, I always rough in with an electronic and use the ear methods for refinement and as a double check.

Charles Nix

[charles-nix]

Biagio:

I think I know the tuning system you are talking about. It is reproduced in one of Bochsa’s student books on IMSLP.

As I remember, it uses octaves and fifths over a roughly 1-1/2 octave span, copying down octaves when out of range. Then it checks with tonic, dominant, and dom-7th chords.

It seems I remember that the accompanying instructions are a little sketchy. The fifths would have to be a little flat in almost any well temperament, but no mention was made of that. I think it was intended to be accompanied by instruction by the teacher.

Personally, I prefer a fourths and fifths temperament method–probably because I learned that way. The fifths are flat and the fourths are sharp (because they are inverted fifths). Then there is no transferring octaves with the accompanying inaccuracy. But it is a lot harder to keep track of which way to move what string.

Today, I always rough in with an electronic and use the ear methods for refinement.

Charles Nix

[charles-nix]

Elettaria:

As Tacye suggests, the older temperaments would be first tries. I don’t know much about historical wire practice.

If you’re going to be playing more complex music, you might listen to quarter-comma meantone. Like any temperament (except equal) you need to know which key you are starting from so that the wolf interval is in a good place for you.

The easier place by ear, and with only one key to play in, might be a pythagorean or a just tuning. It will sound very different to our modern ears that are so accustomed to equal temperaments. Again, just is different for every key–it is not as simple as setting the tuner to “just”.

Resources on how to set any of the above are easily found with a search engine. Basically Pythagorean is pure fifths, and the thirds fall where they may. Just picks the main fifths and thirds that you will be using, and makes them pure (without beats). Which ones are the “main” ones is up to you.

You may like it–you may not. A lot of that will depend on what type of music you are playing.

Charles

[Biagio]

Charles,

Yes, briefly this is called “stretch tuning” and is centered around the fifths and octaves. The order is important : tune the key root to a reference tone, then the fifth, then octave, then the fourth, then the dominant fifth and so on.

I don’t seem to be able to post Marta’s write up here for some reason, but there was a long discussion a few months ago – I think you commented during that(?).

Biagio

[charles-nix]

I remember the discussion about stretch tuning. So, here is what stretching means, at least for keyboard instruments: the octaves are a little wider than a pure octave. How much depends on the instrument. Organs are not stretched at all. Pianos, I understand, stretch around 30-35 cents over their range.

The usual explanation for pianos is that they have irregular overtones, caused by the relative stiffness of the wire, so the stretched tuning allows the irregular overtones to sound better.

I have always understood it to be a very different animal from the pure fifth and octaves pythagorean tuning. We still hear fifths beating (on the flat side) when stretching.

I’ve always heard of stretching as a modification of equal temperament–but the temperament is still fully equal, all fifths and thirds have beats of equivalent speed, and it does not matter where you start. A really good equal temperament is also, by far, the hardest one to set properly by ear, because everything beats with everything else, and you are comparing the relative speed of beat sets, which also increases with increasing pitch.

Have to think more about this pythagorean and stretch connection. Had always thought they were completely unrelated. Interesting.

Charles

[Biagio]

Pretty much my understanding too Charles, although you understand a good deal more than I. Wire harps have the same overtone issues as pianos so beating is much more noticeable than it would be for nylon or gut, if just equal temperament using the tuner alone over all octaves.

Biagio

[Alison]

I’ve gone back to tuning by ear at home and sometimes with a pupil’s harp, because it’s quicker and reinforces my ear’s training, making my ears do more work. They (pupils) absorb the 4ths and 5ths routine by osmosis and I can tune in any key if I have to do something quickly. If I were going out or to orchestra then I’d probably make sure of using the electronic tuner. Interesting comments about equal temperament, a US composer who is based in Hawaii was in a coffee bar in London and asking me furtively what system I use for equal and unequal temperament and I had to explain 4 or 5 times about the need for accurate enharmonics. I think it’s his pet subject.

[Author]

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